Jim Kelley

Jim Kelley writes regularly on the NHL for Sportsnet.ca and can be heard on Primetime Sports on the FAN590.

Excellent points Jim (all of them) Pronger should be treated exactly like Domi was.

This is just an argument to stir the already steaming pot of people ready to crucify Pronger for his " arguably hard hits".

Give it a break.. The guy is larger than most players so he stands out, So basically anything he does will cause attention..

It’s not like he blatantly chopped someone over the head with his stick?

He was just doing what most people agree with, trying to win at the cup even if it means giving a few hard shots.

What about Gordie Howe and his famous take out a few teef with a good elbow and then scoring a goal???

consider if you love old time hockey which most of you perceive too、then look back and tell everyone is this really that bad???

ok, this is getting really stupid...

there is no sane reason why Pronger should have NOT been suspended. This is coming from a Sens fan, and, I also think the Neil "hit" arguement is complete rubbish - and not because of my team affiliation.

Look at it this way - Pronger is a repeat offender - and IN THE PLAYOFFS a repeat offender - so immediately it should have been by more than 1 game regardless of situation.

And to those people that say it's because he's tall - how many "accidental" elbows did the tallest player in the league get in his career so far? That being CHARA? You have to be responsible, and either way you look at that hit - it was not responsible.

Neil's "hit" arguement is because of his rep. (one that Pronger should be getting) How can you possibly suspend (penalize yes) a player for MISSING an elbow? A 2-4 minute penalty would be sufficient. And i do think Neil should have at least been penalized - however - that was missed as well.

Mikethequeen,

How many games has Chara been suspended for hits like this? For play like this? ANSWER ZERO. And Chara is Taller than Pronger. Pronger is plain and simply DIRTY

The only suspension he (CHARA) has ever received is a one game suspension for fighting in the last 5 minutes of the game

Mikethequeen,

How many games has Chara been suspended for hits like this? For play like this? ANSWER ZERO. And Chara is Taller than Pronger. Pronger is plain and simply DIRTY

The only suspension he (CHARA) has ever received is a one game suspension for fighting in the last 5 minutes of the game

and yes,

i did say teef

Sorry Mike, I'm one to disagree with you. Maybe the Holmstrom hit couldn't have been avoided (though I think it may have), but the hit on McAmmond was nothing more than a cheap shot. Pronger aimed his forearm at his head. Nothing else. Size doesn't matter.

I don't always agree with your thoughts but in this case I certainly do. Pronger got one game for the Holmstrom shot to the head, regardless of whether that is fair or not it sets the bar for the moment. Now as far as I can remember, the league ups the ante for repeat offenders so he should have got at the very least 2 games for this hit and that's being conservative. I really don't care if he's 6'6" he brings his elbows up and deliberately goes at the head, if it was his shoulder I would be more forgiving.

I agree with you wholeheartedly for a change Jim! Pronger is out to hurt players and shows no respect. Mike, your argument is very lame. Size has nothing to do with it. How often to you see Chara or Sutton or others 6-5 or taller in the same predicaments & quite frankly a lot of those other players hit harder and cleaner. In my opinion, Pronger is trying to live up to the hype created around him through the media! He should have gotten more for that hit on McAmmond, no doubt!

I have questioned the fact that the NHL hasn't dealt with this issue for a few years now. I believe it is time and admittedly will be tricky to get right. As far as the hit being accidental or to do with Pronger's height is wrong. Both hits were done for a reason and that reason is why every GM would love to have him on the ice for their team. I think the comment about the Ducks' players being upset at Pronger is wrong. Corey Perry by my estimation is 230 lbs with Pronger on the team and not nearly the force without. The Ducks rallied around Pronger's absense against the Wings and appeared happy to do it too. Love him or hate him he is the one constant in the '06 and '07 Finals.

A repeat offender in consecutive series warrants a 3-5 game suspension or rest of the playoffs which ever comes first!

had pronger been 6" shorter than he is i dont think we would even have an issue with this hit. pronger hits hard and he's a giant so sometimes those hits may look cheap and sometimes they are. i think he was just making a play and in the heat of the moment he made a head shot. so were back to the question "where do we draw the line with head shots?". the answer is we cant. plain and simple. in a contact sport things like this happen and to eliminate hitting would just ruin the sport. basicly the league is caught between a rock and a hard place, and they will have to keep giving questionable suspensions for the rest of nhl's life.

i dont think this hit was such a huge deal, the hit that was a problem was the combined hit of neidermayer and pronger on detroits holstrom. any player on the ice with two eyes could see that neidermayer was going to hit holstrom, yet pronger continued to persue him and made one of the dirtiest hits ive ever seen in my life. i thought pronger should have gotten five games for that blatant hit from behind/elbow to the head cheap shot.

You pose some interesting questions but a few things here to add:

1) mikethequeen, the height argument for Pronger is stale and overused. I nearly puked when Pierre McGuire used that one after the game. Pronger's height didn't cause him to follow through with his elbow. The reason why he gets the attention is because he's a star player and because he's made a couple bad choices when it comes to his physical play. He head hunted both Holmstrom and McAmmond and got caught period (by the league at least).

2) This was a one-gamer because a) it actually should have been done and over with had the on ice officials been on the ball. He'd have gotten a five and a game and the case would have been closed.

b) it was hardly as malicious as the Lemieux hit on Draper or publicly premeditated the way Domi foolishly went about getting even with Neids. In both of those cases, the harsher punishments were warranted. This one was a border-line suspension even based on the comments by most of the analysts who weren't convinced either way.

3) Burke makes a point about the Neil run at MacDonald. I thought it was a marginal play too when I saw it, but until the league does actually look at potentials as seriously as they do actual injuries, we'll be mired in the faulty disciplinary process that we now have.

4) Lastly, I agree that the NHL is behind many other leagues in dealing with the head shot issue. I don't see any lack of physical play where strict enforcement takes place, yet the paranoid "old-time hockey" fans seem to think that such a hard-line approach will ruin the game. Haven't seen it get ruined in these other leagues yet. What are we afraid of?

Anyway, I was somewhat impressed that Campbell actually handed down this suspension. Maybe he doesn't sleep through it all...

i love how burke condones violence, he HAS to turn every team he manages into a dirty team. its unfortunate because anaheim use to be a classy orginization.

and also the fact that burke tries to tip toe around pronger's elbow and try to make neil the bad guy? he just feeds off the attention and he will be going 100 times harder tonight. burke is a joke, pronger is a dirt bag and i just plain dont like carlisle!

The real question is why the Senators aren't using the Domi elbow as precedent and complaining about this?

They were both kind of last minute reaction elbows, though Domi's was just a bit more mean looking. Pronger's was only half as bad, he should have got 4 games.

The difference was the star player-on-4th-liner dynamic. If it was MacAmmond that elbowed Selanne, I bet MacAmmond would be done for the series. Or if it was Heatley instead of MacAmmond.

Pronger's always been world class cheap, it's a shame the league continues to let him get away with his dangerous style of play. There's tough, and then there's just dirty. Like Pronger's wife...boooooo!!!!

"consider if you love old time hockey which most of you perceive too then look back and tell everyone is this really that bad???"

Let me ask you this then, what will it take for it actually to be considered "that bad?" Is the NHL going to have to through it's own "Million Dollar Baby" scenario where a player is injured where they are confined to a bed the rest of there lifes or possibly lose a life?

We can use all the excuses in the world that he's too big or he's too small but that's no excuse that you can't pay attention to the area of the body your hitting.

Gordie Howe played in a different era of hockey and you can beat if he played today he couldn't get away with half of things he use to before. The game has changed a lot since Gordie's time.

There is a difference between incidental contact and a blatant foul to the head. By NO MEANS was Pronger’s elbow incidental and he should have deserved more than one game. It is my belief that a one game suspension is a joke. If you really want the cheap shots to go away, multiple game suspensions are the way to go, but the NHL has shown time and again it has no intestinal fortitude to do it.

However, outlawing headshots outright is NOT the way to go. Play back Scott Stevens greatest hits, including the Lindros and Karyia KO’s ant tell me they don’t fit into the bleeding hearts call to get rid of head shots, yet at the time they were made, he was celebrated for them. How is Chara supposed to lay a clean shoulder on someone without being afraid of getting their head and then getting suspended for it? When a foul is blatant like Pronger’s elbow, then suspend him. Don’t go after guys who happen to hit the head while trying to make a clean hit because the guys head was down, like Umburger when Campbell nailed him last year. If the hit was dirty late or early, like Cam Jensen on Kaberle, its ok. Just don’t go after guys trying to make good plays.

i retract my comment about the hit not being a huge deal. i got a much better look at it from a better angle and it was pretty dirty. i still think the hit on holstrom was way worse.

mikethequeen, the height argument for Pronger is stale and overused. I nearly puked when Pierre McGuire used that one after the game. Pronger's height didn't cause him to follow

Just a simple question of the obvious... i did not even listen to Mr. McGuire about the size issue

Pronger Deserves to play in game 3 even though he has a size challenge...

"Old time hockey" was a hard hitting style where the players had respect for one another. They didn't even have to wear helmets back then! As an Oiler fan I dislike Pronger as much as everybody else in and around Edmonton and I don't think 1 game is enough for this guy. He spent 1 season here in Edmonton and while he was here I heard many people marvel at how dirty he was as a player. An elbow here, a slash there. It is part of what makes the guy so good because you go near him you're going to pay. Lastly we didn't see any antics of this nature in the playoffs last year from Pronger he did and said all the right things during the playoffs, this year he seems to be a different person. Perhaps the notion that he is a selfish player isn't that far off the mark.

Basically, what most of you are saying is that you would "love" to have?

Or prefer Pronger to be on your team?

Even at the expense of calling him a "dirty" player?

Go Figure...

hey mikethequeen:

I dare you to come up with an explanation as to why Chara's never been suspended for hits like this when he's the tallest player in the NHL. You're gonna shoot your mouth off, now back it up! I await your reply!

Pronger should have been suspended for at least 3 games. Unfortunately, the league's "marquee" players do not have to play by the same rules as the rest of their brethren. This is the way a Bertuzzi incident comes about. Nobody does anything until it's too late and then they all run around screaming "FIRE"!

Pronger should have been suspended for at least 3 games. Unfortunately, the league's "marquee" players do not have to play by the same rules as the rest of their brethren. This is the way a Bertuzzi incident comes about. Nobody does anything until it's too late and then they all run around screaming "FIRE"!

I just saw the hit here on this site, as I was at WORK during the game, but that was one helluva dirty shot! One game is a joke, I feel that he should be gone for the rest of the playoffs! As you said before, he is a repeat offender...not just one, two, but seven career suspensions! What a joke! Great points on the other questions too...

Since when did the Stanley Cup playoffs become a glorified men's league hockey game? Players are going to get hit, clean or not. To continually ramble on about this is a waste of time. What happens during a game may or may not catch the attention of everyone playing or watching but to go on and on about what should or shouldnt have been done is as boring as watching the New Jersey Devils. It's unreal how so much of what goes on often gets left out. For the love of god, let these guys play like its the Stanley Cup finals and not a pick up game at Chesswood Arena on a Saturday night. It blows my mind to see just how soft the game and those who cover it have become. Kelly, you've been spending too much time cuddling up to McCowan.

Answer 1) Not sure what the question really is here but lets just say yes everyone knows that Pronger is a repeat offender, that's how he plays. That wouldn't stop any GM in the NHL from taking him on their roster. He's a great defenseman who is sometimes dangerous to play against.

Answer 2) He owes them an apology immediately after the suspension comes down. But he doesn't owe the media a chance to hear it? No, It's locker room stuff not press conference stuff.

Answer 3, 4, 5, 6) I don't think anyone argued that Campbell's hands where tied but I think that it was generally agreed that one game was enough last time. Now, I'm not sure how anyone can justify one game this time considering how quickly Pronger repeated his suspendable action but the fact remains that Campbell's hand aren't tied. That's precisely why he can give Domi eight and Pronger one.

Answer 1) First of all, It wasn't an almost hit. It was a hit that didn't cause any damage because it missed McDonald's head (the intended target). There was definitely "legitimate contact" as Neil landed on McDonald after the later ducked. To me it's fine merely because there was no harm done, but come one Kelly, how can you not be frothing at the mouth with talk of new rules about intent to perpetrate a head shot? You're being inconsistent.

Answer 8) What are you talking about here? What leagues? Where? The NFL with it's quarterback head shot rule? Is there a rule about a base runner hitting the second baseman in the head? What about a head to head collision between two point guards that causes profuse and uncontrolled bleeding from the nose of a two time MVP (oops, no discipline there)? Rules aren't transferable from league to league. The idea is ludicrous.

For the record, I would have liked Pronger to get at least 3 games.

Come on here size isn't the issue on this. The type of player that he is caused this. He has to be responsible for what he does and he has to take his height into consideration when he plays. Chara does that just fine. If he can't keep his type of play in check then suffer the consequences and there will be more to follow.

What? Are you on crack mikethequeer? What blog are you reading? The only one who appears to be in "loved" with Pronger is you! I get it! You love him! Fine! But quit defending his stupid actions because you're in love with the dude! Instead, why don't you defend yourself by explaining to me why an equally physical and taller player like Chara has never been suspended for hits on the head and yet Pronger's been suspended seven times!!!

Why not just take out headshots altogether? The NFL has done it, and you don't see people there complaining about no hitting. You can still throw a good bodycheck without hitting the head. Any shot to the head be it with a stick, elbow, knee, a player's behind, and it should be an infraction.

Heavy penalties, in both games and fines, will make players think twice before making a "reactionary play" like pronger did on saturday.

I couldn't care less about either team, but I think there's merit in the height argument. People "finish their hits" all the time which basically consists of giving a shove with your forearm while hitting the guy. The only way to give a shove with your forearm is to extend from your upper arm, and the only way to extend your upper arm is to bring it up and out from beside your body. To me it was a combination of bad timing (extending the arm a fraction later would have pushed against McAmmond's shoulder) so that the arm was up too early and of Pronger's shoulder being the height of McAmmond's head since once the "shove" is done, the arm finishes at shoulder height.

Now, was it just a hit/shove gone wrong, or was there malicious intent? I don't think that the video can show that. If he led with his elbow instead of bringing it up as part of the hit, moved it horizontally instead of extending up away from his body, or took a leap at the player, I think it becomes obvious. Without that, it could very possibly have been a hit gone wrong with no intent involved which is why I'd guess the suspension only came down to a single game. Sens fans can say what they want, but there's something to be said for malicious intent. As someone who, as I said, couldn't care less about either team and just wants to watch some good hockey, I don't think Pronger should have received more and think it's a borderline suspension in the first place.

Chara hits with his elbows tucked in the way most of us were taught to bodycheck.

Kelley you are totally correct on this issue.The NHL once again does it's MLB ostrich in the sand routine on these hits.What is even worse is the NHLPA not having the guts to protect the welfare of their own. Why is that? Well a certain segment of the NHLPA would soon become ex-players if the NHLPA actually looked out for the safety of the group as a whole.

No other league tolerates these hits so why in the world is "Premier" hockey league allowing them?

This whole debate about head shots is a moot point. It seems the whole point of body checking now is to intimidate rather than separate someone from the puck. You don't try to check someone but to punish them for touching the puck. To hit someone 3 steamboats after he has touched the puck is only meant to make the player hurry next time he touches the puck,so he avoids a"punishing check". Also what ever became of the rule that you could not use the boards to increase the force of the check, charging only seems to be called if you hit from behind. There is no respect for other players any more.

germanrebel, Burke accepted the suspension and didn't justify the hit one bit. Not sure where you caught that. Guys like Getzlaf were pretty amazing calling it part of the game and saying it was too bad he hit his head on the ice. LOL. Tough not to hit your head on the ice when you're out cold before you even get there.

At any rate, the Neil run at MacDonald was marginal and I don't blame Burke for yapping about it while the subject was there for the picking. He very well could have done as much damage on that hit as Pronger did. That's why the league is bush in disciplining players. They wait until the injury happens, or until the cameras won't stop the replays before they suspend. Every other league has recognized the issue, but only the dinosaurs of the NHL and some of its faithful can't get it through their heads that you can clean it up without losing the hitting...

Whine,Whine...that's all I have been reading since the playoffs.I thought Leaf fans were sickening...Sens fans have to be the most self-centered,arrogant,vile things on the face of the earth.Seems no Ottawa player commits an illegal act on the ice.Must be nice to be perfect.Hockey will never be great again until they get rid of Bettman,fine officials for their stupid mistakes(take a lesson from the N.B.A.)head shots,bad US market,greedy owners and players.Players have no respect for each other anymore,fans no respect for the players,Hockey is no more since the lost season.Oh by the way I am not a Leafs fan either.And by the way SAME TO YOU !!!

This whole debate about head shots is a moot point. It seems the whole point of body checking now is to intimidate rather than separate someone from the puck. You don't try to check someone but to punish them for touching the puck. To hit someone 3 steamboats after he has touched the puck is only meant to make the player hurry next time he touches the puck,so he avoids a"punishing check". Also what ever became of the rule that you could not use the boards to increase the force of the check, charging only seems to be called if you hit from behind. There is no respect for other players any more.

Here is a couple of points I like to make. First I agree with the suspension. I believe contact to the head (i.e. hitting an opposing player's head with an elbow shoulder or stick)could or maybe should be punished by game misconducts such as Chris Neil's hit on Drury earlier this year unless that player's head is below the offender's waist. That would also include hitting from behind which pushes a player's head into the boards like Alfredson did to another player earlier in these playoffs and got away with it.

Secondly all of you who say its just old-time hockey then you must agree to making the equipment like old-time hockey so we must get rid of the body armour and the hard plastic in the elbow pads.

As for comparing Tie Domi's hit to Pronger's hit they aren't the same. Even though both are classed as dirty hits Pronger's was part of the play. Domi's occurred when the play was already up at the other end.

As for the lack of a suspension for Chris Neil let's look at it this way. Taking six full strides and leading with his elbow straight out in front of his body clearly showed that Chris was intending to make hard contact with his elbow to Andy McDonald's head. So I guess Chris Neil was rewarded with no suspension because he is not good at hitting with his elbow or because Andy McDonald was very smart for ducking. Chris Pronger was on the other hand penalized for sticking his elbow out to side and having a big wingspan or because Dean McAmmond was stupid for not ducking when the elbow was right in front of his face. Its about time the NHL started penalizing players for doing things on the ice that clearly show intent to injure. Mat Sundin received a game suspension for a lack of judgement when he threw his broken stick in the crowd. Nobody was hurt by the play but the suspension still occurred.

Finally as for Chris Pronger being a repeat offender when in the history of hockey has overactive elbows caused a player to be titled as a goon. If that is the case then Gordie Howe was a goon and so was Mark Messier. Let's go a step further. Alfredson has a history of hitting people from behind like this year or against Darcy Tucker a few years ago which hurt Tucker's shoulder but because he has not been suspended for it, its okay and don't dare call him a goon. Face it suspensions in the NHL are at the mercy of Colin Campbell's mood that day and there is no consistancy in his decision making. The NHL will never be better until they come up with a system that is impartial.

Question 2: At what point does Chris Pronger owe his teammates an apology?

You want apology for that? It would be like this:

I am sorry for playing on the edge and being about a foot taller then Mcammond. Since I drank milk and ate my vitamins as a kid I am what I am. I should not have grown to be so tall. Porngers "viscious" elbow to the face is another guys push to the chest.

Question 3,4,5,6: And didn't we see Tie Domi get eight games for his flying elbow on Scott Nidermayer back when Domi was with the Toronto Maple Leafs?. That was a playoff series was it not? Domi was a chronic offender was he not? Domi was a star in Pronger's class right? Not!

The game and series was out of hand on that incident and the ruling was just. This was a rather incidental hockey incident that occurs at a fast pace.

Question 7: Since when does the NHL start considering suspensions for almost hits?

You know Burkey was just trying to throw some heat off; He's a guy who is never wrong...

Question 8: If it's so hard to come up with a definitive ruling regarding blows to the head, an argument often cited by those who advocate that they are "just an unfortunate part of the game" and something we "don't want to take out of our game" then why is it that every league sans the NHL has a policy against them?

Because those leagues are either not as fast or physical or they already do have hits to the head that happen as a result of the game.

NHL brass are an old boys club, suprise, suprise Burkey got his boy off the hook. Neils hit was a penalty, but not a suspendable offence, get real all you misguided homers. Lastly, if that had been Phillips on Penner, trust me, he too would have gotten one game, and his lack of any prior suspensions would have been rolled out as to why it wasn't more. The fact is that the rule about deciding a suspension is there are nor rules, as such, they are always seat of the pants, butt covering, spin doctored, bs outcomes.

The Pronger suspension wasn't just. Sure it was an elbow, but it was more of those reactionary plays where the player is justing trying to stop the opposing player (McAmmond) from passing him. Sure it was an elbow but there was no intent (in my opinion) It is getting lots of attention because McAmmond got knocked out, if he got up no one would be talking about this. Also the soft call on Holmstrom (I thought a game was too much) helped feed teh frenzy. The worst plays I have seen all playoffs were Neil & Alfie shooting the puck at Neidermayer. That is the worst display of sportsmanship save a few in recent memory save the Bertuzzi, McSorley, Lemieux on Drapier, & Domi on Heidermayer and the Dale Hunter elbow. Alfie should get a game for that bone-head play. That is embarrasing to the league & every player in it. But since no one got hurt, no discipline which defies logic.

Since when is it shocking for somebody to throw an elbow in an NHL game?

2 minutes for elbowing.

"2 minutes for elbowing"

an infraction that causes injury is an automatic 5 and a game minimum, so when a guy is unconscious because of the elbow there is no way that there could be a 2 minute penalty

Wow you media guys are blowing this way out of proportion. The Pronger play was a 2-minute penalty for elbowing, no more no less.

An infraction causing injury is not an automatic 5 + game - it is at the refs discression. In this case, the ref standing not 20 ft from the hit looking directly at McAmmond's face didn't even think it warranted a penalty.

OK - bit of a blown call there, but the only reason Pronger was suspended at all for this is because of the Holsmstrom incident - if it didn't happen, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Cherry's point is still most valid - there is no reason for the pads to be hard - softer covered shoulder and elbow pads would eliminate majority of concussions from elbow and shoulders to the head. No reason it can't be a thin layer of foam/padding, then plastic, then foam/padding on top again, same as gloves.

Change the pads, watch the injuries go down, then maybe look at a head shot rule as a last resort.

At what point do these guys all of them grow up and quit bitching, NHL Hockey and the news Media are a Complete Joke.

How about Police Officers, Firemen, Correctional Officers and you can go on & on. These guys are cry babies in the NHL today, thank god they have Hockey Talent, because they would never make it in the real world and you can take that to the Bank.

I know this won't get printed because you guys run the Circus and your also the Clowns. And that Includes Don Cherry.