There might not be a better guy to talk goaltending with.
Curtis Joseph, 47, is the winningest (454 games) goaltender in NHL history without a Stanley Cup ring. What he does own is an Olympic gold medal and the distinction of being the first goalie to record 30 or more victories in a single season for five different NHL clubs.
A late, undrafted bloomer, Joseph is happy now working on his golf game (he’s down to an eight handicap), playing “out” in recreational hockey tournaments, promoting events such as the upcoming Stay in the Play game versus Trevor Linden, and watching his three sons on the rink.
During his NHL career Joseph played for the St. Louis Blues, Toronto Maple Leafs, Edmonton Oilers, Detroit Red Wings, Phoenix Coyotes and Calgary Flames. Despite not being currently employed by an NHL team in any official capacity, Joesph still offers tremendous insight into the hot goaltending topics around the league.
We recently picked CuJo’s brain about squirting water bottles and the drama unfolding between the pipes in Toronto, Boston, Anaheim, St. Louis and New Jersey.
SPORTSNET.CA: What story has stood out for you the most in the playoffs?
CJ: I like tradition, so I love the Boston-Montreal matchup. I think that’s awesome for the second round. I’m cheering for the Canadian team—obviously the last one left and I don’t like Boston that much. I respect them, but playing against them was always tough. Also, the goaltending matchup: those are two of the best goaltenders in the league, Carey Price and Tuukka Rask.
How do you evaluate Rask and Price? Who gets the edge?
CJ: They’re very smooth, very efficient in the net. They don’t move too much. They block when they’re supposed to block, and they take away ice when they’re supposed to. They’re very smart. To be a great goalie, you have to do a lot of things right—and they do it. They’re leaders on their team, they’re good under pressure and they handle the puck well. They keep their upper body straight up and cover a lot of net, and are just so quick and efficient side-to-side. They play bigger than they are, and they’re big guys. I wish I was six-three! It would’ve made the game a lot easier. They’re six-two [Rask], six-three [Price] and use every inch of their body. I can’t pick a winner between the two of them. I’ve seen Carey Price play more, but they’re both good for the game. There are small differences in style, but more similarities. They carry themselves well and they’re both competitive.
Looking at the Anaheim Ducks’ situation in net, what’s your take on Jonas Hiller losing crucial starts to the 20-year-old rookie, John Gibson?
CJ: It’s got to be really tough for Hiller. He’s the No. 1; he’s been there. The guy’s one of the better goalies in the league and he doesn’t get to play. This young guy is their future I guess, but [Hiller] being a free agent [on July 1] factors into it—dollars and cents. We’re not going to give you an eight-year deal for what you’re worth, because we have this young guy coming up. I get it. If I was in [Hiller’s] position, I wouldn’t get it. I’d be offended, but that’s business. That’s why I never like to miss a game; there’s always somebody younger who’s going to take your job.
In the first 10 years of my career you had a No.1 goalie that was clearly a No. 1. There was a discrepancy in talent between No. 1 and No. 2. Now the gap in talent has closed. That second guy can play 20 games as good as the first, but can he play 70 games as good as the first? We don’t know. Yes, this young guy may play four or five drop-dead, but can he do it for the long haul?
Why is there less of a discrepancy between the starter and the backup now?
CJ: I don’t know whether it’s the size of the equipment that makes all these guys comparable. If you pared everybody down to tiny equipment, would the athleticism pronounce itself more? I don’t know. Certainly now it’s 1A and 1A+.
Or you go into training camp and have two guys fight it out. Do you recall a point in your career where the No. 1 wasn’t clear on opening night?
CJ: It was usually pretty clear. In Detroit [in 2003-04], Manny Legace played so well and I didn’t, so he was playing a lot more and I clearly wanted to play. He played lights-out [for $1.1 million] and that was a challenge for me, watching the other guy play as much as I was – and I’m getting paid like a No.1 goalie [$8 million]. You want to earn your money.
You must watch the St. Louis Blues closely. What did you make of Ryan Miller’s playoff performance?
CJ: Their defence is great; they just needed some scoring up front. They needed some timely goals. OK, we’re gonna win now. We got Miller. He can’t score goals. He’s got to win some games 4-3; he can’t shut everybody out. They got to score timely goals and get him over the hump. It’s tough to say you’re going to win by acquiring a goalie. It’s still about a team game. I love Miller. I think he’s been a great goalie.
Henrik Lundqvist got in trouble for squirting his water bottle at Sidney Crosby. How often did that stuff happen when you played?
CJ: All the time. Mostly the tough guys would do the squirting of the water bottle, like in Boston. Guys that could back it up. Usually if you squirt another guy in the face, you can back it up. The fans see that more now because of the TV—you got everything covered. But it’s always been there. On that playing surface, there is so much trash talk and so much interaction, it’s a part of the game I miss. Very funny stuff.
Which players agitated you?
CJ: That stuff didn’t bother me much. Usually the guy trying to agitate me wouldn’t score on me. The guys who scored on me agitated me. The guys who had my number and would never say anything. The great players.
Who specifically had your number?
CJ: Peter Forsberg was a great player. I could never read him. Could never tell whether he was passing or shooting. No emotion. There’s nothing worse as a goalie than getting scored on. So when I watch the playoffs and I see goalies get scored on, I know what they’re feeling. It’s a terrible feeling.
Looking at Toronto’s goalie situation and James Reimer, how much does it really matter that the head coach has confidence in the goalie as long as the goaltending coach and the players have the goalie’s back?
CJ: It’s the head coach. The goalie coach reports to the head coach—he’s the main guy. He has to have confidence in you. Unshakable confidence. That’s what you’re trying to earn. You want him to put you out in any situation. It’s very important that the head coach loves you, bottom line.
So what happens if that confidence isn’t there?
CJ: You better have it. If the coach doesn’t have that in you, it’s a big risk. You better have unshakable self-confidence. Or, you have the challenge: If somebody told me I couldn’t do something, I’d do it. I’d find a way to do it. If the coach didn’t have confidence in me, I’d say, ‘OK, we’ll see about that…’ That’s the attitude you have to take.
How has the role of the goaltending coach changed?
CJ: A lot. Some teams have two goalie coaches. That’s huge. You have a guy that travels all over the place, scouting different leagues as a goaltending coach, then you’ll have another guy to work on technique and repetition every day. You have to be a psychologist, too. That’s where I think I can help goalies, the mental part. Say the coach doesn’t have confidence in you, this is where you gotta go. This is what you gotta be like.
What are the psychological tricks?
CJ: If a goalie is struggling with his confidence, I would befriend him. Get him to trust you. That’s the main thing. Start by saying, ‘This conversation is only between me and you, and anything you’re doing [wrong], I can fix it. I can make you a better goalie.’
You give him that confidence, and you take times when he was really good. You say, ‘Maybe you’re thinking too much. Don’t think about the outcome of the game.’ A lot of times goalies are like, ‘If I lose this game…’ and you can’t do that. There are tricks to avoid that. You give them something to work on. It’s like a ‘swing thought’ in golf. Now you’re focused on your swing being great, not the result of the match. You transfer focus to a technical aspect of the goalie’s game, like positioning or where he needs to be on the ice. You keep the focus on his game, and it really works.
Are you working with goalies right now yourself?
CJ: I help guys; I don’t do it for a living. My son’s team—[Taylor] plays Junior A in Newmarket—I was helping his friend, Jophrey Gregorie, and he turned in a stellar playoff. It was fun to watch. He was a smart kid. He had 2,000 on his SATs or something. Really bright kid, but what happens with bright kids is they think too much. You have to dummy them up a bit. Look at his playoff performance [1.66 GAA, .957 save percentage] compared to the other guy, who was the No.1. Jophrey went from the coach not playing him at all to having the best numbers in the playoffs.
Do you want to be an NHL goaltending coach?
CJ: That’s the ultimate: You can’t play anymore, so you teach. I think I have a lot to give. It’s just time, and you’ve got to be in the right situation. If you’re helping a kid and the team is horrible, there’s not much you can do. You can make him a better player, but it’s limited. I certainly have an expertise in that area. I always tell Gary Roberts, ‘We have a great life. We get to do events and all these things, but the difference is, you get to teach and have that competition on the ice. You get to see that guy you trained go from a 20-goal scorer to a 30-goal scorer.’
That’s a great satisfaction and I don’t have that. I do with my boys and I love them, but at the NHL level that’d be something. The competition is something I miss.
Martin Brodeur passed you in career losses. He is 42 and considering playing next season. You officially retired at age 42. How does an elite goalie know it’s time to hang up the pads?
CJ: It really is hard to know. Even in the end, I wasn’t physically hurt at all, and I thought I could still play. You have to look at tape. I’d see highlights and I’d go, ‘I don’t look the same way that I used to. I look a bit older to me in the net.’ I’d see all the young guys in the room—and just how young they were. [Toronto’s] Luke Schenn was 18-years-old. I was older than his dad. I’d see him in the room, and I thought it was one of the guys’ friends. No, it was Luke’s dad. Then you start realizing, OK, it’s time. Leave it to the young guys.
Did anyone come out and say ‘It’s time’ to your face?
CJ: You know what? You play less. That’s the message. You’re a stock and once you reach a certain peak, you’re going down. No matter how good you play, you have to play twice as good as the younger guy. If I was a GM, I’d want the younger guy to build on too. I’d want a bunch of 22-, 23-year-olds that are all the same age that grew up together. Edmonton Oilers. Chicago Blackhawks. That’s ideal. I don’t want my goalie to be 38 years old — even though when I was 38, I’m like, ‘I’m better than that guy.’
You hear certain things. There are subtleties. I remember [coach] Wayne Gretzky when I was with Phoenix, he’d keep telling me, “CuJo, you’re playing great. We gotta play these young guys. They’re all-world coming out of wherever they are.”
He’s just honest: “We gotta play these young guys. What do you think of them?”
I’m like, “Oh, I like this guy…’ Now I’m giving my opinion, and I understand the business of it. You don’t want your No. 1 goalie to be a ticking time bomb. Even when I’d negotiate contracts at 38 or 39, management would be like, ‘Yeah, you played like you were 23 this year. But who’s to say?’ I’d say, ‘I feel great.’ But those are just words.
How does a once-great goalie deal with that first season of not playing?
CJ: Anything you do you have to have the right attitude. And if you don’t, you better change it. I know going to Calgary [in 2007] when I wasn’t playing and then I [backstopped Canada to gold] in the Spangler Cup and said, ‘Ah, I can still play.’ I went with the attitude of ‘I am the backup and I’m going to do whatever it takes to fill in the gaps.’ I was fine with it. You have to come to the realization that you’re the backup, and this is going to be your role now.